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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
531
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Posted - 2013.03.11 20:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
Why reduce the Slicer's capacitor performance? In my experience it is pretty damn near perfect, neither too much or too little.
CCP Fozzie wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:how come they don't get an extra slot? Because I'm much happier with their balance at 10 slots. Bringing them to 11 would keep the normal pattern for navy ships intact but would require compensating with other significant nerfs. Might one suggest an alternative route to distinguishing Navy hulls .. a role Navy bonus akin to those sported by the other faction hulls (ie. pirate boats). Not as big mind you, half or one third would suffice .. just a little somethin-somethin to set them apart and make up for what effectively is a loss of the slot they previously had on the T1 hulls.
Would have to do some serious soul searching though, find that nugget that epitomizes each of the four races, something that can ideally be applied to all of a races navy hulls.
Or you could go K.I.S.S. on their asses and opt for ~10% extra resists somewhere, or 1/3-1/2 of what is granted the T2 hulls.
Or you could say that Navies incorporated sleeper tech after the success they had with the T3 adoption and slap a bit of heat resistance on them .. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
532
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 23:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hooks with more damage .. I shudder at the thought!
It trades 25-30% dps (comparatively) for absolute and complete control over any and all fights it engages in .. five mids on a frigate is staggeringly HUGE. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
533
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Posted - 2013.03.14 23:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:Fit a tracking enhancer or tracking computer, problem solved, you just countered a TD
For every problem there is a solution you just need to find it And the 2-3 slots you need for those TE's/TC's to actually counter it after stacking is accounted for? We are talking frigs, slots are and have always been in short supply, which is why TD's are so damn effective as there is no viable module based counter.
TD's should get the ECM treatment and be nerfed into the ground for all but the bonused ships where they get a boost (same goes for damps for that matter). They'd still be useful on 'off' hulls but not overpowering as they are now, hoping it will come to pass when/if CCP finally gets around to revising eWar as promised for going on two years
As for kiters defeating AB fits (brawlers) .. 'meh'. Kiting pilots are usually of poor quality, both experience and skills wise (or they wouldn't use silly kiting!) so one is normally able to force his orbit into an ellipse and escape as his point drops for that crucial second or two .. he will need insane speed/point-range to prevent it (ie. if he's Loki'ed you are screwed ) |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
533
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 10:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:ECM should get the TD treatment and be viable on every hull. Because ECM worked so well before it was changed to its current state, right? What is next, roll back the changes to NOS from back in the day? Any module that becomes mandatory to stay competitive is bad, yet that is where TD's are heading. Little wonder that the powers that be chose to hold off on the plans to let them affect missiles as well.
Bouh Revetoile wrote:And most of the time, one TE will mostly counter one TD. In what world? Even if the TD is unscripted you'll lose optimal and retain a pittance of the fall-off boost, but only absolute beginners forget scripts on fits that depend on TD's (ie. vast majority fielding them) so you are looking at -30% optimal even with TE. You literally need 2-3 modules to counter that single TD, which is why multi-midslot frigates are so powerful .. value of a mid slots is simply higher than the low ditto. Not as pronounced on larger hulls due to weapon-range vs. point-range but it is still there, the mid value is something I personally think CCP is downplaying on purpose to avoid having to factor it into balance passes as it would require a lot more spread-sheeting. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
533
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 13:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Counter may not have been the best word to say it, but if you can hit your target despite the TD, then you kind of countered it. You don't need to counter 100% of the effect of the TD to do it. True, but we are talking frigates. A single kilometre or two (5-10% for a Slicer) easily negates so much damage that you might as well not be there .. TD's are becoming the norm because they are very easy to use and have an abnormally powerful effect in relation to the cost involved (cap/range/slot).
In a few more months, if nothing is done, TD's will be omni-present with mainly 3+ mid frigates being used and all of Eve will suffer for it .. it is as far as I am concerned the poster child for the eWar revamp campaign (could just be my coprs Amarr only creed talking though as lasers are hardest hit due to being almost entirely optimal based )
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
533
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 23:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Well unbonused ECM is bad, unbonused damps are bad, why shouldn't unbonused TD's be bad? (Unless you have two of each) Speaking of damps, or rather the boost they could use, why is it they only affect lock range/speed?
Why don't they damp all electronics .. should apply their dampening to a targets sensor strength as well (ie. debuff prior to throwing ECM around) .. hell, let them be able to damp cloaks/stabs/etc. as well for some extra utility (combine with changing super point immunity to a very high built-in stab count for 'lulz'), I miss shooting Gallente recons!
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
535
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Posted - 2013.03.17 22:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:Well ECM is OP, a TD can be countered by flying better, being jammed can not. Strong Ewar is nessecary for interesting fits. Why should every pvp ship be 1 web scram and prop? ECM was OP, now its just annoying as hell, but that is something that won't change until the underlying mechanic is changed. Strong eWar does add some flavour, but there is a rather broad line (ie. not fine at all) between adding flavour and being OP. As for fits, why should every PvP ship be disruptor, prop and TD?
ECM is still very viable on unbonused hulls in the frigate/destroyer sphere as sensors without the militia implants are ****-poor for the most part, against larger hulls however you do need bonuses to make a difference .. TD's on the other hand will reduce everything from a faction fit marauder to a pirate frig to a waste of time regardless of platform used and it does that at optimals greater than what is achievable with ECM (on bonused hulls!).
Question: If ECM was broken due to being too effective at too great ranges on too many hulls, what does that make TD's?
As for the matter at hand, since we have moved completely away from commenting on the thread topic, am I to assume that all that needed to be said has been said?
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
537
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Posted - 2013.03.19 23:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:I definitely understand the frustration... Reason why people want it is because frigate mids are insanely powerful .. "fix" it by re-evaluating cap consumption on all mid-modules and/or go back to the drawing board and reduce the number of frigs with 3+ mids (or their ability to utilize them without gimping something). In the meantime, why not move the utility high to the low-rack? Make it Amarr through and through. Gives it option of adding tank, range, speed, whatever thus allowing it to fill roles similar to what the 3rd mid does (albeit not as effectively).
PS: Actually just want the low to maximize abuse of the SAAR on my brawlers
Bouh Revetoile wrote:On top of that, you have no problem with everyone having a web (or you wouldn't consider everyone using one) but everyone using a TD is a sign that TD is OP ? Are you seriously comparing a 10km tackle module that, after recent changes (mainly tiericide), has only a situational advantage with a 70+km that can neuter any gunboat within its range? |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
539
|
Posted - 2013.03.21 02:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Alticus C Bear wrote:...It could brawl with two mids but the DPS is a bit low so a launcher may make sense in fact given the drone based overhaul of amarr ships giving it a small bandwidth say 10mbit may be appropriate... NO! Not more of those infernal drones/missiles, we have so few gun boats left.
It brawls fine, just requires 2-3 rig slots for tracking and makes MWD use a dicey proposition
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
539
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 16:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
What the hell kind of circle jerking are you engaged in?
Web reaches 10km (heat, links and fat wallets not withstanding) and while it indirectly affects tracking a bit by creating a speed gap one must assume a target is set up to operate in those conditions .. if not then "paper, meet scissors" .. ie. working perfectly. TD's affect tracking or range directly and does so out to a whopping 70km+, the tracking hit taken when a TD is applied is several orders of magnitude higher than if a web was applied (without doing math I'd guess 3xwebs = 1xTD).
One practically need at least twin webs to use them in place of a single TD, and due to range constraints chances are one is nearly dead by the time said tracking advantage kicks in fully (assuming it is used against kiter/high-dps-low-tracking target) .. and all the webs in the world does nothing if you are outranged rather than out-tracked. You use triple web Hooks as a case in point .. just what game are we talking about here? You really think a brawling fit without tank has any chance of surviving against anyone with a clue or not AFK .. a generic Slicer will have you in flames before webs are even applied.
Most dangerous and versatile Hook is single web+TD, you quite simply have no hope of hitting those things unless he messes up and/or panics ahead of schedule (read: is new to the ship).
Now stop rummaging around the the barrel of Apples and come back to the Orange orchard so we can discuss this as adults
PS: Arbitrarily restricting web count is bad mojo, they had to do it with AAR's due to having recently ****** up with SBA's, but we are lobbying for an eWar revision so that kind of panic button abuse should not even be on the table. Better option is to look at cost of running the modules, we have frigates/ceptors with tackle cap bonus but only disruptors put any real strain on cap .. double (or MOAR!) scram/web consumption across the board and let people die trying to spam them. PPS: Cap consumption can be used to balance generic eWar as well, imagine a TD with 2-3x the drain .. boats designed for their use could then have a reduction similar to the tackle frigs. Call it the indirect nerf approach. |
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
540
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 20:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
How do you get those numbers .. the additional transversal can only be achieved by dedicating all (or sometimes more than is available!) lowslots to agility lest the orbit expand out where enemy movement can negate much of it ... experienced that more than once being webbed in my brawling Slicer.
It is why I too believe the 'new' Firetail will be the king of brawlers as it has enough natural agility/speed to stay in nice and tight without having to gimp its lows for same.
Reason why web on the rocket Hook makes a ton of sense is that it adds damage as well as minimize incoming ditto due to explo speed .. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
542
|
Posted - 2013.03.23 01:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Take incursus, for reference... You are not accounting for range. Turret tracking is as far as I am aware still based on radial speed, extending ones orbit alleviates any tracking issues quite rapidly in my experience .. those 200m/s mean absolutely nothing if you can't orbit closer than 3-4km instead of 1km for example.
With just one web difference you will not be able dictate range enough for it to impact incoming damage noticeable (again my experience ), which is why the brawling Slicer works as majority of ships only carry the one ... ships to be wary off are the 4+ mid hulls as they will supplement very often have a TD to force you to use scorch which combined with speed difference makes you miss .. a lot. In short: Speed is inconsequential if you do not also have the agility to make use of it (ie. achieve that tighter orbit). If said agility is not present, which is the case for almost all unmodified hulls, then TD will serve you much better than a second web.
As for countering missile and drone boats, the former depends on pilot record/age, most can be burned down before popping .. usually too close for comfort but thats part of the fun .. the latter are irrelevant unless they pack TD's to prolong their drones time-to-live, there is a reason why the sad, sad Worm has not really been seen for quite some time even though it ticks all the right boxes.
PS: Only speaking as from the side of being the "victim" of TD's as Amarr hulls generally do not have the luxury of fitting employing such cowardly tactics (read: prop+tackle is all there is room for, send more mids! )
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
547
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Posted - 2013.03.24 14:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
2manno Asp wrote:stop being silly, it's only got 2 bonuses. 1 to damage, which is a bit stronger for kinetic missles, the other to range.
what should be done is to change the damage bonus to be consistent. as i've suggested before, something like 15% for all damage types. a nerf to kinetic damage and buff to the other 3. this means the hookbill would do less damage than now, but be able to choose damage types.
Compare to the rocket specific hull called Vengeance and tell me again that 15% to all types will not break it spectacularly
Kinetic has the advantage that no one tanks against it except when facing a scouted Caldari themed enemy, base resist is mediocre to begin with on most hulls with T2 Gallente being the exception .. Kinetic is good.
PS: If you meet an enemy that against all odds have tanked Kinetic then swap ammo and watch him drop like a fly regardless of it being unbonused.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
547
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 16:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
The ammo switch is shared with hybrids and to a certain extent projectiles. It is all about doing research, running the numbers and hopefully picking the 'right one' before the fan starts spreading the manure around .. thankfully we live in a FoTM(Y)/Cookie Cutter world so the decision is often made well in advance. If you are forced to redo the selection mid-fight then you are already dead as the enemy must have done his due diligence and performed the necessary research/number-crunching or he has you locked down controlling range completely.
Note: Above only really applies to frig/dessie fights. Cruisers and above fights are normally long enough to allow for second guessing oneself after the lead starts flying.
2manno Asp wrote:ps - speaking of the vengeance, gimme the double bonus for missles too! 15km rocks on the Vengeance .. hmm, I have learned that things/thoughts that make me drool uncontrollably is bad for game balance so best not |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
548
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 17:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:Hmm base kinetic resistance 2nd best one shield, and bonused on Gallente, that make it probably the best unbonused resistenca out there... Base resist does not mean 'shields only', argument would be valid if all ships were shield tanked, but thankfully even at the height of both nano age 1 and 2 (sun is setting on 2 now) that never occurred. Also, second best on shields means it will hardly ever be tanked against, something I as a laser user know all too well (EM/Therm are always hardened first) .. and on armour it is pitiful through and through. Q: Have you ever used a Kin hardener if you had an explosive or thermal ditto lying around, assuming you have just the one slot open? If so I'd wager it was against a specific and known enemy/ship/fit.
Mike Whiite wrote:...So a lot of Caldari missile ships are Kin bonused, and Hybrides are kin bonused, so if every ship in EVE would be equaly used Kinetic would be the most seen damage type out there... 3/2 Kin/Therm ratio is as far as T1 hybrid ammo drops (starting at almost 50/50) if I recall, switches in favour of thermal with T2 .. so technically correct that it is mostly Kin but again, as a laser user, that almost constant ratio is outright godly (MF starts 'OK' but quickly tilts towards EM) .. and believe it or not EM is not good at all, Scorch works only because it can usually be applied from outside the danger zone so time-to-kill is irrelevant.
Plus you have drone bays (however small) on most Gallente hulls skewing the damage type argument even further.
Once more for posterity: Kin is good. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
642
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Posted - 2013.04.29 12:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:Bah slicer is fine.
It is powerful in its role. The TE adjustment won't hurt it a great deal. The 'utility' high allows the few of use who dare to try alternitive fits. Leave it there Fozzie and don't pander to the uninformed masses trying to force it into one role and one role only.
Good to see the firetail get some love and it should be a good boat with the new stats, not OP be able to compete nicely. Ever tried using that utility high for something constructive on a brawler fit? Neut is ineffective as the ships against which it might have value all have 3+ midslots and thus either superior range control or an injector. Nos is ineffective as the few cycles you get out of it over the duration of the average frigate brawl adds a woefully small amount of cap. In fact, by the time your oversized capacitor (look at it, its HUGE!) is even ready to gain from a nos the fight is close to finished anyway.
If the utility was moved to the mid rack on the other hand you suddenly get eWar for kiting, injector/web for brawling or all the other goodies that one can get from that glorious rack. If the utility was moved to the low rack the effect would be similar albeit not as focused or effective, but more speed/damage/tracking/cap/tank are all options. In short: The utility on the Slicer is a wasted slot. Even if used as sink for laser heat one still has to repair after each fight.
Rita Jita wrote:...need more ships able to mwd kite outside of scram range, minmatar was all about kiting Fixed it for you
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
649
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Posted - 2013.05.01 13:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
Yeah, few realise what power that 4th mid on the Tail gives them .. was an absolute thrill/horror to fight before (mainly because only good pilots flew it, the ones in the know) and will be the biggest damn pain in the arse with more more damage .. mainly because more are likely to try it out.
Much like the early Hooks that flew around, was the elite doing it to start and when the rabble saw what can be done with five mids on a frig the bandwagon needed several more carriages to hold all the people swarming it.
Comet could do with a little less grid though, the sacrifice for oversizing the plate (yes, 400 on a frig is oversized!) are way too light, should be a choice between downgrading guns or using a second fitting mod/rig.
Yes please to finding somewhere else to put that Slicer utility .. or rather what is the antonym of utility, because it is never actually used now that everything of value for a frig can be found with onboard scanner (used to online/offline a probe launcher as needed). |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
653
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 10:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
They could buff it by making those snazzy headlights a soft weapon .. whenever front of ship is pointed towards an enemy (+/- 20 degrees) the enemy's screen turns a pale white making any control/vision impossible without using hotkeys!
Make the others into roadkill! |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
671
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 17:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote:Still can-Št believe CCP is really killing the slicer. The ship will be dead like hell. Only for comparison again: - comet: 150mm rails, 163dps, 10.4k ehp, ab scram web possible. - firetail: 148 dps, tracking disruptor, 8.7k ehp, scramweb possible. - slicer: erm... ??? Maybe 172 dps at 10.5k ehp, ab scram possible but ONLY scram. NO WEB. IDIOTIC!!!! COMPLETELY IDIOTIC. Especially because lasers don-Št hit anything if you are orbited at 500m^^. No clue how a brawler with such a bad damage at close range (500m) can survive without web^^. Additionally if the firetail has td with trackdis on the slicer and slicer is orbited at 500m^^. Kiter slicer? HAHAHA. Firetail has td and comet rails. Forget it.
THX CCP for actually killing the slicer. Whatever do you mean, it will still be awesome against 2-3 fits and newbs
At least the signature is not the worst of the bunch, that is something .. the lack of the 3rd mid forces it into kiting (brawling is possible with hefty sacrifices, but suicide now that everyone caught onto the broken performance of TDs) yet for some reason it has the lowest base speed and mediocre agility/mass when it should be to frigs what the lame-ass Nomen will be to cruisers (ie. bring a Rapier/Huginn or drown in tears).
1. Swap the physical attributes (speed/agility/mass) with the Comet .. there is no reason whatsoever for a highly versatile drone/hybrid boat to be that maneuverable compared to a one trick pony that doesn't even close to the same amount of base tank (hull increase alone equals almost 450 EHP after suitcase). 2. Move utility to middle rack .. was good to have for probes before ship scanner supplanted that with ludicrous range Nos is pretty much useless when a single relay will yield 2/3rd of the cap with no range requisite and regardless of comparative cap. Neut is useless, bordering on suicidal, as you need every joule for yourself and chances are the enemy is either injected or packing a neut of his own ... either is only applicable if one sniffs the crazy glue and goes brawl with 2 mids in the first place.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
684
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Posted - 2013.05.29 15:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
I tried warning you all about the restrictions (read: pointlessness) of adding that midslot to the Coercer, almost immediately after CCP/CSM voiced their desire to do so .. it is worse of with 3 lows, period. If that mid absolutely had to be added it should have come from the high rack ... but alas, idiocy prevailed leaving us a cripple (albeit more heavily armed) *sigh*.
Dragoon has some nifty options though, just sad to see the honorable Coercer left eating the scraps from the table
And to pre-empt moderation - On topic: Gief more midzzz to Slicer!!!111 (ie. move utility to mid). |
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
688
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 10:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
Meditril wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: Utility high on a RANGE focused ship is indeed not extremely helpful. That one could be very well moved. Or add antoher turret and reduce a bit the damage bonus to not get overpowered
Nope it is. Put in an offlined salvager and you can overheat your guns significantly longer. Why waste ISK on a salvager, CCP changed the sink mechanic to apply with empty slots a while back if i recall .. you put the old in school
Besides, the benefit of a sink is not that pronounced when you have maxed thermodynamics and only two guns, you'd lose 15-20s or so at most without the sink slot and if you have to heat that much (2+ minutes) then you have already lost (read: too big a mouthful). |
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